Sfera in una doppia guida

Area riservata alla discussione dei problemi teorici di fisica
Physicsguy51
Messaggi: 62
Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Physicsguy51 » 9 set 2023, 5:36

According to the condition of the problem, the ball rolls without slipping, therefore, the speeds of those points of the ball that at a given moment of time touch the metal at AB (Fig.) are equal to zero. Considering the ball to be an absolutely rigid body (that is, the distance between any two points of the ball is unchanged), we conclude that at a given moment in time all points of the ball lying on the segment AB are motionless. And this means that at each moment of time the movement of the ball is a rotation about the axis AB. (It is clear that points A and B - the points where the ball touches the metal - are moving with the speed .)

The instantaneous velocity of any point of the ball is , where is the angular velocity of rotation, is the distance from the point to the axis AB. The speed of the center of the ball (point O in the figure) is equal to ; the distance from point O to axis AB is . Hence,


It is clear that the points of the ball most distant from the axis AB have the maximum speed. From geometric considerations it is clear that at any moment there is only one point that is maximally distant from the axis - in the figure this is point Q. The distance from point Q to the axis of rotation is , and speed of Q is:


Higgs
Messaggi: 145
Iscritto il: 29 mar 2023, 11:26

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Higgs » 9 set 2023, 11:29

Excuse me Physicsguy51. As you have seen, I found because OAB has the angle O equal to and . Wath's the trivial error I do'nt see? Moreover as you said the angular velocity is Thank you.

Pigkappa
Messaggi: 2030
Iscritto il: 11 gen 2009, 14:58
Località: Londra

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Pigkappa » 9 set 2023, 12:10

I'm stuck on this same point, I'd say as well.
"Per un laser, si passa da temperature positive a temperature negative non passando attraverso 0 K, ma passando attraverso l'infinito!" (cit.)
"Perché dovremmo pagare uno scienziato quando facciamo le migliori scarpe del mondo?" (cit.)

Physicsguy51
Messaggi: 62
Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Physicsguy51 » 9 set 2023, 12:58

Pigkappa ha scritto: 9 set 2023, 12:10 I'm stuck on this same point, I'd say as well.
Triangle OAB is equilateral. Angle AOB is not 90 but 60.

Physicsguy51
Messaggi: 62
Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Physicsguy51 » 9 set 2023, 13:09

Physicsguy51 ha scritto: 9 set 2023, 5:36 According to the condition of the problem, the ball rolls without slipping, therefore, the speeds of those points of the ball that at a given moment of time touch the metal at AB (Fig.) are equal to zero. Considering the ball to be an absolutely rigid body (that is, the distance between any two points of the ball is unchanged), we conclude that at a given moment in time all points of the ball lying on the segment AB are motionless. And this means that at each moment of time the movement of the ball is a rotation about the axis AB. (It is clear that points A and B - the points where the ball touches the metal - are moving with the speed .)

The instantaneous velocity of any point of the ball is , where is the angular velocity of rotation, is the distance from the point to the axis AB. The speed of the center of the ball (point O in the figure) is equal to ; the distance from point O to axis AB is . Hence,


It is clear that the points of the ball most distant from the axis AB have the maximum speed. From geometric considerations it is clear that at any moment there is only one point that is maximally distant from the axis - in the figure this is point Q. The distance from point Q to the axis of rotation is , and speed of Q is:

This solution is for the problem originally which had mentioned that A and B are not on the same level.

Pigkappa
Messaggi: 2030
Iscritto il: 11 gen 2009, 14:58
Località: Londra

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Pigkappa » 9 set 2023, 15:40

Interestingly, this document from an American competition, in problem 2, reports your same result, without proof.

But... I am still confused :shock: in the problem I posted, and the result is , isn't it?

Here is why I think ... Adding a point Z in the figure at the bottom, OAZB is a square of radius R, and half of the diagonal is

Immagine
"Per un laser, si passa da temperature positive a temperature negative non passando attraverso 0 K, ma passando attraverso l'infinito!" (cit.)
"Perché dovremmo pagare uno scienziato quando facciamo le migliori scarpe del mondo?" (cit.)

Physicsguy51
Messaggi: 62
Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Physicsguy51 » 9 set 2023, 15:57

One crucial error which I think you are making is by assuming that A and B are on the same level. They are not. If A and B aren't on the same level, then you cannot assume angle O to be 90 degrees. In that case (as mentioned in original problem from Kvant), the triangle will be equilateral with each angle being 60 degrees.
Ultima modifica di Physicsguy51 il 9 set 2023, 19:08, modificato 1 volta in totale.

Higgs
Messaggi: 145
Iscritto il: 29 mar 2023, 11:26

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Higgs » 9 set 2023, 18:10

I agree completely with Pigkappa. I dont understand why a difference of level between A and B changes the angle O. As if we rotate with an axis for Z

Tarapìa Tapioco
Messaggi: 146
Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Tarapìa Tapioco » 9 set 2023, 18:48

Physicsguy51 ha scritto: 9 set 2023, 5:36 According to the condition of the problem, the ball rolls without slipping, therefore, the speeds of those points of the ball that at a given moment of time touch the metal at AB (Fig.) are equal to zero. Considering the ball to be an absolutely rigid body (that is, the distance between any two points of the ball is unchanged), we conclude that at a given moment in time all points of the ball lying on the segment AB are motionless. And this means that at each moment of time the movement of the ball is a rotation about the axis AB. (It is clear that points A and B - the points where the ball touches the metal - are moving with the speed .)

The instantaneous velocity of any point of the ball is , where is the angular velocity of rotation, is the distance from the point to the axis AB. The speed of the center of the ball (point O in the figure) is equal to ; the distance from point O to axis AB is . Hence,


It is clear that the points of the ball most distant from the axis AB have the maximum speed. From geometric considerations it is clear that at any moment there is only one point that is maximally distant from the axis - in the figure this is point Q. The distance from point Q to the axis of rotation is , and speed of Q is:

Sorry, but I disagree with this solution. In the diagrams attached by @Pigkappa, which coincides with that of AAPT in this document it is not entirely clear where points and are. Are they respectively the lowest and highest points of the sphere, or the point nearest where the plates meet and the point furthest from it?
The right-hand diagram appears to show the plates end-on, so is looking up the slope. That means is the correct interpretation. This makes the answer '' correct. The text is wrong to refer to them as .
Under interpretation , the speed of is multiplied by the ratio of distances from to and to , namely, , so it is .
Under interpretation , is not the fastest point, and its speed is indeterminate because we do not know the angle of the slope. As to how the AAPT answer came to be wrong, it was a rehash of an old question and they forgot to change everything consistently. It happens, and to note, this is not the first time this has occurred in the USAPhO.
It sometimes helps to consider an extreme case. Suppose the plates are vertical, which they could be, as far as we know. The point at the top of the sphere is from , so moves at speed . Meanwhile, the point furthest from the plate join still moves at . I have tried to verify your solution, graphically, using all kinds of software and graphing calculator, but it is in no way possible to obtain an equilateral triangle , with all three angles of 60 degrees, while keeping the two metal planes orthogonal to each other (as explicitly required by the text). It is not really possible. There is a huge discrepancy between the text and the proposed graphical scheme. I cannot understand why in your opinion the triangle is equilateral in the case and are not at the same level.
Ultima modifica di Tarapìa Tapioco il 9 set 2023, 19:13, modificato 2 volte in totale.

Tarapìa Tapioco
Messaggi: 146
Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28

Re: Sfera in una doppia guida

Messaggio da Tarapìa Tapioco » 9 set 2023, 18:58

Pigkappa ha scritto: 9 set 2023, 15:40 Interestingly, this document from an American competition, in problem 2, reports your same result, without proof.

But... I am still confused :shock: in the problem I posted, and the result is , isn't it?

Here is why I think ... Adding a point Z in the figure at the bottom, OAZB is a square of radius R, and half of the diagonal is

Immagine
Sono d'accordissimo. Più tardi posterò il mio procedimento completo (purtroppo non ho potuto farlo prima, in quanto in questi giorni sono stato poco bene), che per i punti 1.) e 2.) è identico a quello proposto da te e @Higgs. Questo problema è parecchio interessante, non solo per il procedimento da svolgere al fine di soddisfare le tre richieste, ma anche per qualcos'altro, su cui metterò l'accento nella parte conclusiva della mia risoluzione; ciononostante, è reso meno interessante da una soluzione ufficiale fuorviante, peraltro non dimostrata (già questo dovrebbe mettere in guardia dalla sua provenienza) e perciò - con buona probabilità - riciclata da qualche esercizio simile ma non identico (come ho già detto, non è veramente la prima volta, se si prova a guardare le soluzioni fornite dal sito ufficiale delle USAPhO, da me già visionate in passato). Come rovinare un'ottima idea, aggiungerei.

Rispondi