Figure: https://ibb.co/jg1bP8V
Ball rolling on table
-
- Messaggi: 62
- Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06
Ball rolling on table
The middle band of a horizontal table is formed by a (infinite) rubber strip of width
moving at a constant speed
and exactly fitting to the resting surface of the tabletop. A solid rubber ball is launched perpendicular to the edge of the conveyor belt, rolled smoothly, with an initial speed
. We find that when the ball rolls smoothly again after leaving the conveyor belt, it moves parallel to its original direction of movement. By how much distance
did the trajectory of the ball shift in the direction parallel to the conveyor belt? (The coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces and the ball is large, so the duration of sliding and rolling movements is much smaller than
).
Figure: https://ibb.co/jg1bP8V
Figure: https://ibb.co/jg1bP8V
-
- Messaggi: 149
- Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28
Re: Ball rolling on table
Interesting problem. Did you make it up or is it from some text? If the answer is the latter, where did you get this exercise from? In any case, I will publish my unfolding in a while.
-
- Messaggi: 62
- Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06
Re: Ball rolling on table
This problem was shared with me by a friend of mine. It is from some Hungarian physics olympiad.
-
- Messaggi: 149
- Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28
Re: Ball rolling on table
Before posting my solution, I would like some points to be clarified. The problem is fascinating, but the text is very obscure in its final part. Could you explain much more precisely the assertion contained in parentheses at the end?
greater than it had earlier on the table. Therefore, there are several assumptions with several possible explanations.
Although the coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces (by this definition, I think the author means to consider both the static part of the table and the rubber strip) and the ball is equally large, there could be a change in the coefficient of friction (and, therefore, the modulus of the frictional force) between one surface and the other. Thus, the sliding and rotating movements - which compose and generate the rolling of the ball -intensify (especially the rotation), while from the text it is clear that the ball possesses an angular momentum and a translation velocity that are both constant. Therefore, does a change in friction between the static part and the mat affect this motion? If yes, one would try to imagine how the first influences the second.
Another possible solution lies in a stable rolling motion on the table. If one went from a rough to a smooth surface, friction would not affect this motion, but the change in the coefficient of friction causes the force to act on the velocity, which in turn varies with an increase in rotational speed which, with so much friction, drags the ball with larger velocity.
What do you think of these remarks of mine? What does the author of the problem mean?
Thank you for any clarifying reply.
This assertion assumes that the ball travels through the rubber conveyor belt with a velocityPhysicsguy51 ha scritto: ↑27 ago 2023, 8:34
(The coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces and the ball is large, so the duration of sliding and rolling movements is much smaller than).
Although the coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces (by this definition, I think the author means to consider both the static part of the table and the rubber strip) and the ball is equally large, there could be a change in the coefficient of friction (and, therefore, the modulus of the frictional force) between one surface and the other. Thus, the sliding and rotating movements - which compose and generate the rolling of the ball -intensify (especially the rotation), while from the text it is clear that the ball possesses an angular momentum and a translation velocity that are both constant. Therefore, does a change in friction between the static part and the mat affect this motion? If yes, one would try to imagine how the first influences the second.
Another possible solution lies in a stable rolling motion on the table. If one went from a rough to a smooth surface, friction would not affect this motion, but the change in the coefficient of friction causes the force to act on the velocity, which in turn varies with an increase in rotational speed which, with so much friction, drags the ball with larger velocity.
What do you think of these remarks of mine? What does the author of the problem mean?
Thank you for any clarifying reply.
-
- Messaggi: 62
- Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06
Re: Ball rolling on table
I am also confused regarding this problem. However, I think we have to assume friction exerts a constant force on the ball. The coefficient of friction is assumed as same for both the table and the rubber strip.
Ultima modifica di Physicsguy51 il 28 ago 2023, 10:04, modificato 1 volta in totale.
-
- Messaggi: 62
- Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06
Re: Ball rolling on table
This is what my friend replied: In other words, pure rolling starts much sooner than the time it takes for the ball to move to the other side of the conveyor belt.Tarapìa Tapioco ha scritto: ↑28 ago 2023, 2:44Before posting my solution, I would like some points to be clarified. The problem is fascinating, but the text is very obscure in its final part. Could you explain much more precisely the assertion contained in parentheses at the end?This assertion assumes that the ball travels through the rubber conveyor belt with a velocityPhysicsguy51 ha scritto: ↑27 ago 2023, 8:34
(The coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces and the ball is large, so the duration of sliding and rolling movements is much smaller than).
greater than it had earlier on the table. Therefore, there are several assumptions with several possible explanations.
Although the coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces (by this definition, I think the author means to consider both the static part of the table and the rubber strip) and the ball is equally large, there could be a change in the coefficient of friction (and, therefore, the modulus of the frictional force) between one surface and the other. Thus, the sliding and rotating movements - which compose and generate the rolling of the ball -intensify (especially the rotation), while from the text it is clear that the ball possesses an angular momentum and a translation velocity that are both constant. Therefore, does a change in friction between the static part and the mat affect this motion? If yes, one would try to imagine how the first influences the second.
Another possible solution lies in a stable rolling motion on the table. If one went from a rough to a smooth surface, friction would not affect this motion, but the change in the coefficient of friction causes the force to act on the velocity, which in turn varies with an increase in rotational speed which, with so much friction, drags the ball with larger velocity.
What do you think of these remarks of mine? What does the author of the problem mean?
Thank you for any clarifying reply.
-
- Messaggi: 149
- Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28
Re: Ball rolling on table
This problem is much less difficult than the "Physicsguy51 ha scritto: ↑27 ago 2023, 8:34The middle band of a horizontal table is formed by a (infinite) rubber strip of widthmoving at a constant speed
and exactly fitting to the resting surface of the tabletop. A solid rubber ball is launched perpendicular to the edge of the conveyor belt, rolled smoothly, with an initial speed
. We find that when the ball rolls smoothly again after leaving the conveyor belt, it moves parallel to its original direction of movement. By how much distance
did the trajectory of the ball shift in the direction parallel to the conveyor belt? (The coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces and the ball is large, so the duration of sliding and rolling movements is much smaller than
).
Figure: https://ibb.co/jg1bP8V
Consider an appropriate
Since the ball rolls smoothly along the static surface of the table, it carries out a pure rolling motion with constant initial velocity
To recap:
Since in the beginning, the rubber ball performs a constant rotation, when it arrives in the vicinity of the conveyor belt, the coordinates of the angular velocity and translational velocity (of the centre of mass) are the same as those at the starting point: the velocity of the centre of mass has only component along
The ball arrives in the vicinity of the treadmill with the above velocities and begins a rototranslational motion. It does not begin to roll from the very beginning, but there is a settling period in which, before rolling, the ball slides across the table. So, it first carries out a sliding, then begins a rolling motion, in a small amount of time
Three forces are acting on the ball: the weight force
With no rotation, the only force that changes the velocity is the force of friction, constant in modulus, intensity and direction,
Since the ball has entered the conveyor belt, it has acquired an initial velocity along
Let us analyze the rotational analog of Newton's Law, calculating the torques with respect to the centre of mass. Since the weight force
The only force contributing to the motion is dynamic friction, whose "arm" will be equal to the radius of the wheel, being the force applied at the point of contact and being the "arm" a distance from that point to the centre of the ball. The frictional force will therefore have torque:
Using Newton's second law in angular form, we obtain an equation of motion for angular acceleration:
To compare the linear velocity of translation with the angular velocity, it is possible to transform the angular velocity
The rotational velocity
The sliding and rolling motion is combined by translation and rotation. Initially, at the moment of launch, there is pure sliding; during the motion, friction tries to decrease the

Translational velocity decreases progressively, while rotational velocity increases linearly: they will equal each other at some point corresponding to an instant of time
The ball, in this case, is assimilated to a homogeneous solid sphere, so its moment of inertia is equal to
Note that the time
With this preliminary analysis completed, we need to consider which physical model to use for the determination of
On the conveyor belt, along
To calculate
Describe the phenomenon not in a frame of reference
Figure 1:

Figure 2:

When the two velocities
The final rolling speed
Now, assume the table as the fixed
From the beginning of the sliding and rotational motion to the beginning of pure rolling (i.e., from
The previous equation in vector form can be written as:
Substituting in
Substituting numerical values:
Ultima modifica di Tarapìa Tapioco il 18 ott 2023, 16:10, modificato 14 volte in totale.
-
- Messaggi: 149
- Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28
Re: Ball rolling on table
Si consideri un opportuno riferimentoPhysicsguy51 ha scritto: ↑27 ago 2023, 8:34The middle band of a horizontal table is formed by a (infinite) rubber strip of widthmoving at a constant speed
and exactly fitting to the resting surface of the tabletop. A solid rubber ball is launched perpendicular to the edge of the conveyor belt, rolled smoothly, with an initial speed
. We find that when the ball rolls smoothly again after leaving the conveyor belt, it moves parallel to its original direction of movement. By how much distance
did the trajectory of the ball shift in the direction parallel to the conveyor belt? (The coefficient of friction between the horizontal surfaces and the ball is large, so the duration of sliding and rolling movements is much smaller than
).
Figure: https://ibb.co/jg1bP8V
Poiché la sfera rotola senza alcun intoppo lungo la superficie statica del tavolo, essa compie un moto di puro rotolamento con velocità iniziale costante
Ricapitolando:
Poiché inizialmente la palla di gomma effettua una rotazione costante, quando essa arriva in prossimità del nastro trasportatore, le coordinate delle velocità angolare e traslazionale (del centro di massa) sono le medesime di quelle di partenza: la velocità del centro di massa ha solo componente lungo
La sfera, giunta nelle vicinanze del tapis roulant con le velocità sopra indicate, inizia un moto di rototraslazione: essa non comincia a rotolare sin da subito, ma vi è un periodo di assestamento in cui, prima del rotolamento, la palla striscia sul tavolo. Dunque, essa dapprima compie uno strisciamento, successivamente inizia un moto di rotolamento, in un tempo
Le forze agenti sulla palla sono tre: la forza peso
In assenza di rotazione, l'unica forza che modifica la velocità è la forza di attrito, costante in modulo, intensità e verso,
Dal momento che la palla è entrata nel nastro trasportatore, essa ha acquistato una velocità iniziale lungo
Si analizzi la II Cardinale, calcolando i momenti rispetto al centro di massa. Dal momento che la forza peso
L’unica forza a contribuire al moto è l’attrito dinamico, il cui braccio sarà pari al raggio della ruota, essendo la forza applicata al punto di contatto ed essendo il braccio la distanza di tale punto dal centro della palla. La forza d’attrito avrà dunque momento:
Utilizzando la seconda legge di Newton in forma angolare, si ottiene un'equazione del moto per l’accelerazione angolare:
Al fine di raffrontare la velocità lineare di traslazione con quella angolare, si può trasformare la velocità angolare
La velocità di rotazione
Il moto di rototraslazione è combinato da una traslazione e da una rotazione. Inizialmente, nel momento del lancio, si ha strisciamento puro; durante il moto, l’attrito cerca di diminuire la

La velocità traslazionale diminuisce progressivamente, mentre quella rotazionale aumenta linearmente: esse si eguaglieranno in un certo punto corrispondente ad un istante di tempo
La palla, in questo caso, è assimilabile a una sfera omogenea piena, per cui il suo momento d'inerzia è pari a
Si noti che il tempo
Terminata quest'analisi preliminare, bisogna valutare quale modello fisico utilizzare per la determinazione di
Sul nastro trasportatore, lungo
Per calcolare
Si descriva il fenomeno non in un sistema di riferimento
Figura 1:

Figura 2:

Quando le due velocità
La velocità finale di rotolamento
Adesso, si assuma il tavolo come sistema di riferimento fisso
Dall’inizio del moto di scivolamento e rotazione fino all’inizio del puro rotolamento (cioè, da
La precedente equazione in forma vettoriale può essere scritta come:
Sostituendo in (1), si ha:
Sostituendo i valori numerici:
Ultima modifica di Tarapìa Tapioco il 18 ott 2023, 16:17, modificato 5 volte in totale.
-
- Messaggi: 62
- Iscritto il: 13 nov 2022, 5:06
Re: Ball rolling on table
Unfortunately, your answer is incorrect. The correct answer is 
-
- Messaggi: 149
- Iscritto il: 30 lug 2023, 15:28
Re: Ball rolling on table
Is the mistake in my interpretation of the text, or in the second part of my unfolding?